BirthChoices.co.uk Glasgow Support Group

We received an email in October 2008 from a midwife called 'Jane' which we thought was useful to share. Jane's original email is printed first & then our reply to the points which she has raised.

---- Original Message -----
From: "jane"
To: <jayne@birthchoices.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:23 AM
Subject: comment (jane)
Your Name: jane

Hi there, I am a midwife who works in scotland and i have heard some people talking about this website so thought I would have a nosey. It seems to me that you seem to put us midwives down a lot with your ridiculous comments page. Basically you are all nothing but jumped up arsehole wannabe midwives who seem to have nothing better to do than to try and pass your 'west end' snobbery on. Well I am sorry but YOU are the ones who disillusion women who are clearly not suitable for homebirth situations, why is it alright for you to call us names on your poxy little website and we have no right to reply or to say how unfair it is. Everyone is starting to get pissed off with this rubbish so crawl back under the stone you came from.

The Birth Choices Reply:

Dear Jane,

Thank you very much for your warm comments regarding our website BirthChoices.co.uk. I can see you are obviously a big fan! Let me please address some of the issues you have raised.

"It seems to me that you seem to put us midwives down a lot with your ridiculous comments page".
Mmm, I have no idea why you would make this assumption? All we have done is post up genuine comments made by midwives & indeed many other health professionals in Glasgow & elsewhere in the UK. In fact, of the 26 comments submitted so far, 16 have come from midwives & 10 from other health professionals such as GPs & Registrars.

We do not find the tall stories page to be 'ridiculous' - in fact many women find it comforting to know that they're not the only ones lied to by NHS staff regarding their maternity care & it helps them to recognise when they have been told a falsehood. But if you find the exposé of lies to be something you can not deal with, perhaps it is because you have been involved in the sort of comments submitted to this page?

As for "putting midwives down alot" - have you read our "Beacons of Good Practice" page? Perhaps if you did, you might learn about midwives who are experts in their fields, whose professionalism & determination have made a real difference & who put women & babies at the centre of their maternity care.

"Basically you are all nothing but jumped up arsehole wannabe midwives who seem to have nothing better to do than to try and pass your 'west end' snobbery on".
Now, now, only lower forms of human life revert to name-calling. If you'd like a grown-up discussion, then we're happy to have one with you, but do get your facts right! I (Jayne) am a television producer who has absolutely no intention of ever becoming a midwife - I know where my skills lie & it's definitely not in midwifery. To me authentic midwifery takes a very special kind of woman & I do not possess the talents for this particular profession - patience, intelligence, insight, intuition, empathy, and old midwifery skills to help a baby through the pelvis - these are all are talents which I greatly admire.

I am better suited to gathering information & communicating it to the general public - my background in journalism has taught me to research well & get my facts right. Perhaps this is something you may wish to take a greater interest in?

Cassy, however, who co-owns this website IS a midwife who has worked in the NHS & independently, with 15 years experience under her belt. So I suggest you do some further research on this, & indeed, most other issues, before you further embarass yourself with unfounded assumptions.

"West End Snobbery" - you'll have to enlighten me here. I live in Parkhead, which is in the East End of Glasgow, so I have no idea what you're talking about & Cassy lives in Ayrshire. I'm sure all the women who live in the West End of Glasgow will be delighted to be called 'snobs' by you - is this something you do to their faces when caring for them in the maternity services? Or do you live outside of Glasgow & prefer to inflict your ignorance on another region of unsuspecting women?

"Well I am sorry but YOU are the ones who disillusion women who are clearly not suitable for homebirth situations",
In order to discuss this point, you really need to clarify the criteria by which you believe women are 'suitable' or not for home birth. And even so, whether a woman is 'suitable' or not under your criteria, it is always her decision as to whether she would like to give birth at home, not yours. We prefer to give women the information they need to make an informed choice & then respect her decision wherever or however she chooses to birth.

We treat women like adults, not children who can't think for themselves. We fundamentally believe in autonomy & understand that with this comes responsibility. Responsilbility for finding out the facts & making your decisions based on your findings. If a woman makes a decision to birth at home against medical advice, that is her decision to make - not yours - and she must live with the consequences should anything untoward happen.

Conversely, a woman who births in a hospital must also make exactly the same fact-finding risk assessment for her & her baby's health & live with the consequences.

I am intrigued - do you have a problem with control? If a woman who you deem to be 'unsuitable' to birth at home chooses to do so any way, do you feel this somehow disempowers you as a midwife? Do you judge a woman who goes against your advice? Do you harbour ill-feeling towards her in any way? Also, have you ever sought the help of a health professional who deals with anger management at all?

"why is it alright for you to call us names on your poxy little website and we have no right to reply or to say how unfair it is".
Can you please enlighten me as to where we have been name-calling on BirthChoices.co.uk? Name-calling is definitely not our style - we left the playground more years ago than we care to remember, but can the same be said for yourself? Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but you & everyone on the planet in 2008 has a 'right to reply' - why don't you set up your own website & do with it whatever you like? I will draw your attention to name-calling & the laws regarding slander & libel however, before you embark upon this project.

"Everyone is starting to get pissed off with this rubbish so crawl back under the stone you came from".
Absolutely fantastic! We couldn't be more thrilled! Hit a rather raw nerve have we? Making people like yourself uncomfortable with the information & support we provide is exactly the type of response we want to our website. If this is how it makes you feel, then you are probably guilty of aiding & abetting a maternity system that puts hospitals & management at the centre of its care, not the health & welfare (mental & physical) of its mothers & babies.

Can you honestly say that the place in which you work offers the research-backed gold standard of maternity care - individual midwifery-led continuity regardless of risk?

Because whilst the vast majority of women in this country are subjected to a factory production line which research proves leads to poorer outcomes for mothers & babies including birth trauma, then we will continue to hit nerves, press uncomfortable buttons & make people like yourself angry about the fact we are providing unbiased information & non-judgmental support.

You will probably find the TRIP database a useful starting point if you wanted to broaden your knowledge based on research. But can I also suggest you take an in-depth examination of the Cochrane Database - both websites can be accessed via our website. A thorough read-through of Michel Odent's work is also highly recommended - he is an obstetrician, so may be more suited to your comfort zone.

Thank you once again for your feedback & best wishes,

Jayne.

www.birthchoices.co.uk ~ BirthChoices Glasgow ~ CLICK HERE TO VISIT THE GLASGOW VILLAGE ~ a free directory of all the local maternity contacts, classes & support in Glasgow ~ VITAL STATISTICS - HOW DOES YOUR LOCAL HOSPITAL MEASURE UP?: THE QUEEN MOTHER'S HOSPITAL - THE SOUTHERN GENERAL - THE PRINCESS ROYAL - THE ROYAL ALEXANDRA
	Welcome! BirthChoices Glasgow usually meets on the first Tuesday of every month 7 - 9pm. We support informed choice & gentle birth whether you choose to have your baby at home or in a hospital. We very much welcome anyone interested in sharing information & supporting other women. Whether you're pregnant, a mother or an interested health professional with an enthusiasm for normal birth, if you're fed up with your present maternity care or are still smarting from a recent pregnancy, please email us & join the chat.	Latest News: New Feedback Service NHSGG have recently set up an opportunity for users of the maternity services to provide valuable feedback. Please contact Pauline Cameron, the new Community Engagement / Information Officer with any thoughts or comments you have about the maternity services in Glasgow - good or bad! maternity.services@ggc.scot.nhs.uk New Home Birth Service At our April meeting, Head of Midwifery, Eleanor Stenhouse, and her 2 new Consultant Midwives, Dorothy Finlay & Sheona Brown, announced the development of a new home birth service for Glasgow! Due to be implemented *"in 3 to 5 months' time"* (so July-Sep '08), This new service, provided by 2 midwives working on call, will give all women who want a home birth the vital continuity of care they need. Check back here regularly for any further developments. Read Melanie's normal twin birth story at the Community Midwifery Unit in Paisley, Jan 2008 here Waterbirth in Glasgow: At our September meeting 2007, the Head of Midwifery for Glasgow, Eleanor Stenhouse, announced that all Community Midwives have now had access to training in waterbirth. If you encounter any Community Midwife who says she can not provide you with a waterbirth because she hasn't been trained, please email your experience to Eleanor. Bringing your own Birth Pool into hospital Update: Jul '08 Predictably, NHSGG say they have looked into the possibility of taking your birth pool into hospital but The Estates won't allow it. The excuse is: "The steam from the pool is not good for the lights & the rooms have the wrong flooring. The hospitals need different flooring & different electrics & lighting, which NHSGG are not prepared to pay for". Anyone else getting that 'Wrong Leaves on the Track' feeling? However, we have contacted Birth Pool In a Box directly & they claim that all these problems can be overcome with minimal fuss: "These problems are not uncommon and can be resolved, albeit with perseverance and patience. Liverpool Women's is having similar problems, for example, but they are now insisting on having the building work done". If you'd like NHSGG to reconsider its position regarding bringing birth pools into hospital & supporting women who would like a normal birth, please email your thoughts to Eleanor Stenhouse, Head of Midwifery. Resources: To view these files you will need Adobe Reader 8 Evidence supporting midwifery-led continuity of care - Scottish Parliament Public Petition 1052
You may have a question about your care that you don't feel comfortable asking your own Midwife/Obstetrician? Perhaps you feel bullied into receiving treatment you're not sure about? Or maybe you'd like to know more about your rights & choices? Whatever your concerns, please come along & share them amongst women who have had similar experiences & in addition, you'll have access to advice from an Independent Midwife. All information shared in meetings will be strictly confidential.
News: The festive season & the appalling weather at this time of year are never a great combination for Birth Choices, so we're skipping the next few months in order to bounce back in February with Waterbirth. Have a peaceful Christmas & a happy New Year & we'll see you in 2009. Jayne, Cassy & Debbie x Next Meeting: Our next meeting will be held on Tuesday February 3rd 2008 7-9pm at The Annexe in Partick (see map below) & we'll be discussing: Waterbirth This is always a popular session, which we repeat often as new pregnant ladies find the group, so do come along to find out why giving birth & labouring in water is so beneficial for you & your baby. Plus, you'll have the chance to check out a real Birth Pool in a Box & we'll answer any questions you have about pregnancy & birth, whether it's related to waterbirth or not. (And if you're really lucky, Cassy may even tell you all about the 'Aquatic Ape'). FURTHER READING: Home Birth Reference Site AIMS Association of Radical Midwives Look forward to seeing you there. View Larger Map Coming up in the next few months : tbc
What else do we cover?: Waterbirth / Breech Birth / Older Mums / Caesarean Section / Vaginal Birth After Caesarean / Home Birth / Pain Relief / Homeopathy & Herbalism / Routine Interventions / Normal Birth / Antenatal Testing / How to Complain / How to write a Birth Plan / Potential Problems in Labour / Breastfeeding / Supervisors of Midwives / Baby First Aid / Choosing the right birth supporters. If you'd like us to cover any subject not listed, we'd love to hear your suggestion, so please email us.

	Please Note: Although Cassy, an Independent Midwife, is more than happy to offer general midwifery advice during the Birth Choices monthly meeting, unfortunately, she is unable to answer specific clinical questions relating to your pregnancy or birth. This is because if Cassy has not been involved in your care as your midwife, she can not provide appropriate advice based on your individual medical history. There is a considerable difference between asking 'can you still have a home birth with Group Strep B' (general advice) & 'I have a complicated medical history, should I accept an offer of induction?' (specific clinical advice). Don't forget you can still email Cassy outside of the Birth Choices meetings, but please do not telephone - Cassy spends a great deal of her time working On Call & therefore needs to keep her work line free for her clients.
FANMAIL We received an email in October 2008 from a midwife called 'Jane' which we thought was useful to share. Jane's original email is printed first & then our reply to the points which she has raised. ---- Original Message ----- From: "jane" To: <jayne@birthchoices.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:23 AM Subject: comment (jane) Your Name: jane Hi there, I am a midwife who works in scotland and i have heard some people talking about this website so thought I would have a nosey. It seems to me that you seem to put us midwives down a lot with your ridiculous comments page. Basically you are all nothing but jumped up arsehole wannabe midwives who seem to have nothing better to do than to try and pass your 'west end' snobbery on. Well I am sorry but YOU are the ones who disillusion women who are clearly not suitable for homebirth situations, why is it alright for you to call us names on your poxy little website and we have no right to reply or to say how unfair it is. Everyone is starting to get pissed off with this rubbish so crawl back under the stone you came from. The Birth Choices Reply: Dear Jane, Thank you very much for your warm comments regarding our website BirthChoices.co.uk. I can see you are obviously a big fan! Let me please address some of the issues you have raised. "It seems to me that you seem to put us midwives down a lot with your ridiculous comments page". Mmm, I have no idea why you would make this assumption? All we have done is post up genuine comments made by midwives & indeed many other health professionals in Glasgow & elsewhere in the UK. In fact, of the 26 comments submitted so far, 16 have come from midwives & 10 from other health professionals such as GPs & Registrars. We do not find the tall stories page to be 'ridiculous' - in fact many women find it comforting to know that they're not the only ones lied to by NHS staff regarding their maternity care & it helps them to recognise when they have been told a falsehood. But if you find the exposé of lies to be something you can not deal with, perhaps it is because you have been involved in the sort of comments submitted to this page? As for "putting midwives down alot" - have you read our "Beacons of Good Practice" page? Perhaps if you did, you might learn about midwives who are experts in their fields, whose professionalism & determination have made a real difference & who put women & babies at the centre of their maternity care. "Basically you are all nothing but jumped up arsehole wannabe midwives who seem to have nothing better to do than to try and pass your 'west end' snobbery on". Now, now, only lower forms of human life revert to name-calling. If you'd like a grown-up discussion, then we're happy to have one with you, but do get your facts right! I (Jayne) am a television producer who has absolutely no intention of ever becoming a midwife - I know where my skills lie & it's definitely not in midwifery. To me authentic midwifery takes a very special kind of woman & I do not possess the talents for this particular profession - patience, intelligence, insight, intuition, empathy, and old midwifery skills to help a baby through the pelvis - these are all are talents which I greatly admire. I am better suited to gathering information & communicating it to the general public - my background in journalism has taught me to research well & get my facts right. Perhaps this is something you may wish to take a greater interest in? Cassy, however, who co-owns this website IS a midwife who has worked in the NHS & independently, with 15 years experience under her belt. So I suggest you do some further research on this, & indeed, most other issues, before you further embarass yourself with unfounded assumptions. "West End Snobbery" - you'll have to enlighten me here. I live in Parkhead, which is in the East End of Glasgow, so I have no idea what you're talking about & Cassy lives in Ayrshire. I'm sure all the women who live in the West End of Glasgow will be delighted to be called 'snobs' by you - is this something you do to their faces when caring for them in the maternity services? Or do you live outside of Glasgow & prefer to inflict your ignorance on another region of unsuspecting women? "Well I am sorry but YOU are the ones who disillusion women who are clearly not suitable for homebirth situations", In order to discuss this point, you really need to clarify the criteria by which you believe women are 'suitable' or not for home birth. And even so, whether a woman is 'suitable' or not under your criteria, it is always her decision as to whether she would like to give birth at home, not yours. We prefer to give women the information they need to make an informed choice & then respect her decision wherever or however she chooses to birth. We treat women like adults, not children who can't think for themselves. We fundamentally believe in autonomy & understand that with this comes responsibility. Responsilbility for finding out the facts & making your decisions based on your findings. If a woman makes a decision to birth at home against medical advice, that is her decision to make - not yours - and she must live with the consequences should anything untoward happen. Conversely, a woman who births in a hospital must also make exactly the same fact-finding risk assessment for her & her baby's health & live with the consequences. I am intrigued - do you have a problem with control? If a woman who you deem to be 'unsuitable' to birth at home chooses to do so any way, do you feel this somehow disempowers you as a midwife? Do you judge a woman who goes against your advice? Do you harbour ill-feeling towards her in any way? Also, have you ever sought the help of a health professional who deals with anger management at all? "why is it alright for you to call us names on your poxy little website and we have no right to reply or to say how unfair it is". Can you please enlighten me as to where we have been name-calling on BirthChoices.co.uk? Name-calling is definitely not our style - we left the playground more years ago than we care to remember, but can the same be said for yourself? Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but you & everyone on the planet in 2008 has a 'right to reply' - why don't you set up your own website & do with it whatever you like? *I will draw your attention to name-calling & the laws regarding slander & libel however, before you embark upon this project.* "Everyone is starting to get pissed off with this rubbish so crawl back under the stone you came from". Absolutely fantastic! We couldn't be more thrilled! Hit a rather raw nerve have we? Making people like yourself uncomfortable with the information & support we provide is exactly the type of response we want to our website. If this is how it makes you feel, then you are probably guilty of aiding & abetting a maternity system that puts hospitals & management at the centre of its care, not the health & welfare (mental & physical) of its mothers & babies. Can you honestly say that the place in which you work offers the research-backed gold standard of maternity care - individual midwifery-led continuity regardless of risk? Because whilst the vast majority of women in this country are subjected to a factory production line which research proves leads to poorer outcomes for mothers & babies including birth trauma, then we will continue to hit nerves, press uncomfortable buttons & make people like yourself angry about the fact we are providing unbiased information & non-judgmental support. You will probably find the TRIP database a useful starting point if you wanted to broaden your knowledge based on research. But can I also suggest you take an in-depth examination of the Cochrane Database - both websites can be accessed via our website. A thorough read-through of Michel Odent's work is also highly recommended - he is an obstetrician, so may be more suited to your comfort zone. Thank you once again for your feedback & best wishes, Jayne.